On Thursday night SmartMeasures as the 2018 B3000 Overall Business of the Year winners, were thrilled to pass the 2019 Award to Jarrod Briffa at Kinfolk. Not only did Kinfolk take out the Overall Business of the Year award, they also won the Social Enterprise category.
Special guests were for the evening were Hon. Adem Somyurek, Minister for Local Government and Small Business and Mark Schramm, Acting Small Business Commissioner
What did winning the B3000 Award mean to SmartMeasures?
When the co-founders Mike Crooks and Libby Dale started work on their submission in April 2018, they had just launched SmartMeasures at the Salesforce World Tour in Sydney and were promoting their new product to Energy Retailers in Melbourne.
Libby Dale – “We had been working hard for many years on the idea and developing the product. Entering the awards gave us the opportunity to engage in the process of thoroughly documenting our plans. We would not have done such a deep dive into our business and the submission has effectively been the foundation for where we are a year later. The recognition of winning served to validate our idea and gave us confidence to push on.”
Mike Crooks – “2018 was a big year for SmartMeasures, launching our product in March and winning B3000 in June through to signing our first Energy Retailer in October. Winning the B3000 Innovation Award was an important part of our first year in market as it gave us, and our customers the confidence that SmartMeasures was a winning idea.”
The SmartMeasures team has grown substantially with five of the team in attendance and enjoying the festivities of the Award night. The new members of the SmartMeasures team are:
What’s the difference
between a dissatisfied customer and an unhappy or angry customer?
A dissatisfied customer is likely to feel frustrated or
annoyed about an aspect of your service. Service delivery may have been a bit
slow. Or a minor mistake was made. The incident may be quickly resolved and
soon forgotten. An unhappy customer, however, will not be easily placated. They
have the potential to do real damage to your brand.
As with the difference between a satisfied and happy
customer, it’s about the emotional connection. Just as an emotionally engaged
and happy customer is a great benefit to your business, unhappy customers are a
threat to your business. They will vent their dissatisfaction to friends and
family. Leave damning reviews on social media and forums.
Not only will you lose their business. You will lose the business
from other potential customers.
unhappy or angry customers
An unhappy or dissatisfied customer have one thing in common
– they are both bad for your business. Dissatisfied customers will be more
passive. Their feelings are less intense and short lived. They are unlikely to
complain or let you know they are dissatisfied. If they take any action it’s
likely to be that they won’t use your products or services again. They may also
tell a number of friends about their experience.
Angry customers will let you and the rest of the world know
their feelings. They will leave angry one star reviews on Google and Facebook.
They will take any opportunity they can to complain about your business and
explain why you are hopeless.
Most dissatisfied customers can be handled with an apology
and a commitment to rectify the mistake that was made. However, if the same
problem, despite the apologies, keeps happening, the minor feelings of
annoyance or frustration will deepen. Instead of extreme dissatisfaction,
customers will start feeling betrayed by the business from promises constantly
Feelings of betrayal will turn to anger. Angry Customers
will respond strongly and in many cases seek to punish the business.
The costs to a
business from dissatisfied customers is enormous. Research shows a typical business
hears from just 4 percent of its dissatisfied customers—and of those 96 percent who
never voice complaints, 91 percent will never come back. According to research
from Vision Critical businesses across the world are losing trillions of
dollars due to dissatisfied and unhappy customers.
It’s not possible to
keep every customer constantly happy and satisfied. Mistakes will happen.
Miscommunications will happen. It’s how you handle those mistakes and how well
you keep the promises you make to customers that will make them happy or make
them feel betrayed.
customers are cheaper to service, less price sensitive and less likely to
churn. Customer happiness goes beyond customer satisfaction by creating an
emotional connection with a brand’s products and services. The challenge lies
in understanding what makes customers happy and how much value this brings to
organisations have developed extensive surveys and tools to analyse and assess
customer satisfaction. CSAT and NPS provide time tested metrics for assessing
satisfaction from customers willing to participate in a survey. CSAT surveys
typically ask customers to rate experiences by the following criteria:
customer happiness is very different to customer satisfaction. The ability to
define and measure happiness is far more challenging, though the potential
benefits far exceed the benefits gained from customers who are merely
between satisfaction and happiness
satisfaction implies that customers feel ok about their experiences with a
brand. It’s an emotionally neutral state where customers’ expectations are
being met. Satisfaction does not mean there is an emotional connection with the
brand or its products and services
article from Gallup highlights how
satisfying customers without creating an emotional connection has no real value. For satisfaction
without an emotional connection has no impact on loyalty or churn reduction. A
customer may be satisfied with the last interaction they had with a company but
would readily switch to a competitor for a better deal.
Creating an emotional connection
Cliff Condon from Forrester comments, “If brands want to break away from the pack and become CX leaders, they must focus on emotion. Best-in-class brands average 17 emotionally positive experiences for every negative experience, while the lowest-performing brands provided only two emotionally positive experiences for each negative one. Emotion is critical to a brand’s bottom line.”
To establish an emotional connection between a customer and the brand, means designing customer experiences that tap into emotional motivators such as a desire to feel a sense of belonging, to succeed in life, or to feel secure. So customers are not just satisfied with a transaction or an experience, but that sense of satisfaction is matched with a deeper emotional connection.
happiness not satisfaction that drives customer loyalty and engagement as well
as the propensity for customers to recommend the brand to others. Research
published in HBR demonstrates that emotionally connected
customers are more than twice as valuable as very satisfied customers.
connected customers will buy more products and services, be less price
sensitive and recommend the brand and its products to others. In 2018 research
from Adobe found repeat customers:
Are buying nearly 30% more items per order than first-time
Are 9 times more likely to convert than first-time shoppers
Generated three to seven times more revenue per visit
Other statistics include:
A 5% increase in customer retention correlates with at least a 25%
increase in profit (Bain & Company)
Customers with an emotional relationship with a brand have a 306%
higher lifetime value and will recommend the company at a rate of 71%, rather
than the average rate of 45%. (Motista).
statistics are compelling. Maximising customer happiness is a powerful means
for maximising customer value.
In your family,
friendship circle, amongst work colleagues, apologies are part of what
maintains trust. It seems common sense
that if you let someone down or fail to deliver what you have promised, you need
to apologise. This applies just as much to a brand and its customers as to our
private relationships with friends and family.
Customer satisfaction surveys and exit surveys in particular, confirm the link between failing to deliver and customer retention. Brands that continue to make mistakes or fail to deliver, are going to have problems retaining customers.
How far can an
apology reverse the damage done and help retain disgruntled customers?
The economics of an apology
experiment conducted in September 2018 on 1.5million Uber
customers who had experienced late rides suggested there was a
financial impact. Their analysis found
that “absent any apology, a rider who
experienced a late trip spends 5-10% less on the platform than can otherwise be
They have an impact on customer retention and future spend. People are more than likely to forgive a company that says
sorry. A financial incentive may help sweeten the deal, but in many cases that
may not be necessary. An apology recognises the pain or frustration the customer has felt. If
the pain felt is minor, financial compensation is most properly unnecessary.
But an apology is also a promise that things in the future will be
better. If the customer continues to experience the same problem, they will
become far less forgiving after each incident.
The Uber field
experiment highlighted the following insights:
It depends on how
the apology is made. If it’s not managed
it may in fact backfire.
The logic is pretty simple: if you promise to improve, and then don’t, the apology
is worth less than zero. If you overuse
them, it can be worse than no apology.
And in some cases, admitting you are wrong and apologising can seem like
louder than words – the best form of apology includes a discount or a voucher. In the Uber experiment, when they included a
$5 coupon for a future trip, that actually worked to reverse some of the bad
effects of a bad trip. To put it in perspective, a bad trip, the person spends
5% – 10% less on future trips. If you give them a $5 coupon, there was an
increase of 2% in net spending.
In some cases,
sending an apology is worse than sending nothing at all, particularly for
repeated apologies. Again, the logic is
simple: an apology is basically making a promise. When we apologise we are basically accepting
being held to a higher standard relative to somebody that did not apologise. When customers received multiple apologies,
they found that these customers actually punished the company more than
customers that never got an apology at all.
enter into a commercial arrangement they are trusting the business to deliver
on their promise. When something goes
wrong, an apology can restore trust. The
absence of an apology can message:
realised what we’ve done
we don’t care, we
are not committed to holding up our side of the bargain
we are hoping the
customer hasn’t noticed
There is a saying
in large organisations “Don’t poke the bear”.
We hope the customer hasn’t noticed we have stuffed up. The fear is that if we admit our mistake and
reach out to service the customer, it will be the catalyst for them to leave
But if we don’t
apologise, in psychological terms, what message does it send to the
customer? It says either we hadn’t
realised we failed them, or that we didn’t care and they’re not that important
This fits with
study that says 68% of all people leave a business because of a perceived
indifference. Could this be related to a
poor service experience and no recognition, apology or compensation?
now, most large businesses can detect when something goes wrong for individual
Apologies, to be truly effective and not simply
saying sorry, are often difficult. An
apology is due when trust is broken, and to restore trust the apology is the
first step. No apology increases the potential of losing a customer. The apology
is a promise that a problem will be rectified and will not happen again. If you
fail to deliver on that promise than the consequences are likely to be more
costly than if you never apologised in the first place.
sometimes called attrition, is when a customer switches to another supplier.
Let’s face it, times are tough for businesses, particularly energy
retailers. Retail margins are under
pressure, they are at the end of the supply chain and carry the high cost of
While competition is a good thing, constant churn between providers is significantly detrimental to profitability and reputation.
There are a couple of misconceptions about customer churn:
Price alone drives customers to leave
It’s too costly to try to keep customers. It’s cheaper to let them go and replace them
with new ones
Price alone drives customers to leave
If it’s not about price, then why do customers leave?
Forbes says that 68% of all people leave a business, because of ‘perceived indifference’.
& Co says a customer is 4 times more likely to defect to a competitor
if the problem is service related than price or product related.
reflect on our own experiences and feelings as customers to large
suppliers. We can probably relate to
both these statements. As humans, we
relate to being understood and appreciated and if we feel that we are being
serviced too, then we are not even likely to entertain a conversation with a
new supplier, let alone actually churn.
If we feel
our supplier is looking after us, we stay, even at a price premium. Who wants the hassle of moving suppliers?
Now if we
get an exceptional offer from another supplier at a good price, and we are
unhappy with our current supplier, then we might consider switching if the
price is attractive.
So, businesses need to focus on making us feel appreciated and on service, rather than on price. More on this later.
It’s too costly to try to keep customers. We often hear – “It’s cheaper to let them go and replace them with new ones.”
HBR says “Acquiring a new
customer is anywhere between 5 and 25 more expensive than retaining an existing
The truth is, the main focus on
retention is when a customer has already decided to leave, and are in the
process of changing suppliers. The existing
supplier will often then attempt to win us back with an offer of a lower price and
usually a gift or voucher to entice us to stay.
The cost of this retention
activity, so late in the game, is high, and if it retains the customer there is
usually some ill-will created. Why
wasn’t I offered this price before now?
It took someone else to pay attention to me for my existing supplier to
Retention effort at this late
stage is expensive and doesn’t always work.
The trick is to be pro-active and get in early with service because it’s cheaper and more effective at retaining the customer.
Large businesses often have huge
numbers of customers and it’s hard to see who is in need of service attention. So what should a business look out for? What factors reflect or impact customer
There are 3 groups of data which,
when combined, are quite effective at predicting customer churn:
Operational data – how the business is delivering for its customers
Behavioural data – what actions customers are taking that might give us a measure of how they are feeling (their sentiment)
External data – There are external data sources that could provide an early indicator that a customer may consider looking around
There is a lot of data across
many systems and it’s constantly changing.
What’s the best way to monitor the situation for every customer and predict
when to take action to service those in need in real-time?
Most large businesses have data
analytics programs to leverage their data to gain insights to take action. But is this may not be the best approach for
An alternative approach is
presented in a recent HBR article
– Alibaba and the Future of Business.
This new approach has been labelled “Smart Business” and proposes
running a continuous process of collecting data, analysing, learning and taking
action in real-time.
In this example, for measuring
individual customer health and predicting churn, the AI does the discovery and
takes action based on findings.
Historical data is collected to train the AI to predict customer
sentiment and churn risk, then Operational, Behavioural and External data is
collected real time to continuously assess the risk for every customer.
The AI alerts the business to
when customers are ‘at-risk’ of churning and a Treatment Plan is initiated automatically
to reach out to service the customer.
The Treatment Plans are designed in conjunction with the customer service team to ensure effectiveness and are optimised to ensure the cost of treatment is minimised and well below the replacement cost for that customer.
When an ‘at-risk’ customer is
treated, the results are fed back into the AI to continuously learn and optimise
The objective with a solution
like this is to leverage all that existing data for the good of the customer AND
for growing the business’s revenue.
Just imagine a business knowing their
customers at an individual level, knowing if they’re happy or not. And if they’re not, knowing they have the systems
in place to reach out and service individual customers BEFORE they think about
At SmartMeasures, we have built a software solution that does all this.
If this is something you would like to hear more about, please message me.
In the enterprise world, data is never clean. Data is never complete. Data is never without errors and it is never all in the one place. Worse still, often the meaning of the data changes over time as business processes change or the systems that store the data are upgraded.
There is an age-old saying in the computer industry that goes: “Garbage in, garbage out” Or in other words, if you feed a computer data with issues, don’t expect an answer without issues.
All this does not bode well for AI, which likes to consume vast amounts of data.
Traditionally, the data science approach has been to prepare the data first – to plug the gaps and correct the data as much as possible so that you are comparing apples with apples.
I’d like to suggest a different mindset. A communication engineer’s view of the world is from the perspective of signal and noise. There will always be noise. The goal is to maximise the gain of the signal in the presence of noise.
So, rather than over-invest in data prep (particularly since the value of the data is uncertain in the early stages), instead prioritize AI approaches that:
are resilient to noise and agnostic to the meaning of the data
can start as a small pilot then quickly scale to your entire customer base
continuously learn as your data changes
As we demonstrated to an Australian energy retailer recently for predicting customer churn, this approach can achieve unexpectedly high levels of prediction accuracy.
But prediction alone is not the answer.
A system that just predicts doesn’t deliver a business outcome. Instead you need two engines – one to constantly predict based on changing data and a second “treatment engine” to decide when and how to act or not-act on the prediction. Where is the cut-off point that maximises the benefit we receive? In the case of customer churn, how do I minimise the combined cost of either keeping my customers or replacing them? How do I maximise the total number of customers? Can my system learn from my attempts to reduce my churn?
These are some of the principles we hold dear in our software.
SmartMeasures is thrilled to announce that we are this year’s winner of highly regarded Alan Knipe Innovation Award and the BlueRock Business of the Year Award, making us the overall winner of Melbourne’s premier awards for small business, Business 3000+.
The Alan Knipe Innovation Award recognises the significant strides we have made in the area of churn predictive software.
SmartMeasures has been the culmination of many years of work in and with large businesses. The main premise behind the creation of SmartMeasures is that businesses have all the information and data needed to be able to tell how they are treating individual customers and to be able to read and measure customer sentiment. But to date it has been difficult for large businesses to break out of their silos and measure all that data at the individual customer level.
Customer churn is a huge cost to business and an upset for customers, so by reducing customer churn, SmartMeasures has the potential to help businesses retain revenue and reduce pain for customers.
This is particularly relevant in 2018, given that customer attrition and turnover continue to have a significant impact on the business bottom line. No-one is immune to it, not even the largest and most successful organisations.
Our SmartMeasures software enables businesses to very accurately predict if their customers are on the verge of leaving (or at the very least, are thinking about leaving) and to instantly and automatically take action before an irritation becomes a full-blown problem and they leave.
No-one else is doing this, not even leading data scientists in multi-national operations. They may have all the information and data needed to tell them how their organisations are treating individual customers and to read and measure changes in customer sentiment, but this is happening within a few silos and doesn’t incorporate automating the action of reaching out to ‘save’ customers.
So far no other providers are delivering a closed loop system to incorporate the treatment of the ‘at-risk’ customers and feeding the results back to maximise benefits.
Rather than take a ‘one size fits all’ approach to managing risk, SmartMeasures enables users to intervene on a case by case basis and apply treatment plans to suit the level and type of risk detected. This cuts out the annoyance for customers placed in a generic retention campaign that had little or no relevance to them.
SmartMeasures takes customer centricity to the next level.
Winning the Alan Knipe Innovation Award gives us that all important recognition and third party validation that what we are doing is right, the industry ‘thumbs up’ that what we have developed is unique and innovative.
There is nothing more powerful than that!
*The Business 3000+ Awards is Melbourne’s premier awards program for small business. Since 2004, the B3000+ Awards have been recognising and celebrating the endeavours and achievements of independent businesses located within the City of Melbourne that contribute to the commercial success and unique, vibrant fabric of the City.
Thank you to the sponsors StarRez, BlueRock, Small Business Victoria and Melbourne Business Network
If you would like to find out more about SmartMeasures or have a FREE consultation, get in touch by emailing [email protected] or by calling Libby on 0400 633 729
Conjures up scenes from the block-buster, Minority Report, where ‘pre-cogs’ predicted crimes before they happened and members of the ‘pre-crime’ squad arrested perpetrators before they even lifted a finger?
However, predicting churn before it happens is not the stuff of sci-fi. It is here with us today thanks to powers of artificial intelligence (AI) and the tenacity and determination of two Australian customer retention experts, Libby Dale and Mike Crooks, who have developed the world’s first churn predictive software applicable across industry.
Aptly called, SmartMeasures, this clever software enables businesses to accurately pinpoint if customers are on the verge of churn (or at the very least, are thinking about it) and to very quickly step in before an irritation or series of annoyances becomes a full-blown problem.
The new solution is riding on the back of a global trend focussed on retaining customers rather than accepting attrition as a normal but painful part of business. This, in turn, has spawned the emergence of a brand new practise area, ‘customer success management’.
Not surprisingly, says Ms Dale, SmartMeasures has the potential to save businesses millions of dollars in lost business.
“Conservatively speaking our software is capable of stripping 10 percent from our churn bill. By way of example, a company losing $500 million to customer attrition (which is commonplace in high-churn industries), can at the very least anticipate savings in the order of $20M per annum.
“Naturally our expectation is that it will save them much, much more.”
SmartMeasures is now available to English speaking businesses globally which has a churn problem costing them in excess of $10M annually. However, those with churn problems over $50M are likely to benefit most.
Rather than relying on the ‘pre-cogs’ of Minority Report to foresee pending attrition, the software relies on an exhaustive collection of customer risk markers or measures drawn from across business. These measures have the potential to contribute to changes in customer sentiment and can include negative customer behaviour such as not paying bills on time, declining product usage, complaints, calling the call centre on multiple occasions or impacts the business has on customers such as operational problems, late delivery, variable product quality, billing errors and so on.
When one of these markers or a mix of these markers is detected by Smart Measures, alerts are triggered in real time, enabling the system to instantly trigger a series of automated responses or for business to step in and remediate the problem.
The application of artificial intelligence or machine learning to the software is real ‘magic sauce’ and has taken the prediction and remediation of customer risk to a whole new level. It has also provided the software with its real edge in the market.
“Basically it has empowered our software to do what would not be humanly possible,” says Ms Dale
“AI enables Smart Measures to scroll through vast amounts of customer interaction data and very accurately predict which customers are at risk of churning and determine what action or treatment plans should be applied to the problem. The best is that this happens in real time which means that businesses can react instantly to a customer’s changing circumstances, rather than some time after the event when remediation may be too late and the damage is already done!
“Also rather than take a ‘one size fits all’ approach to managing risk, AI gives businesses the smarts to intervene on a case by case basis and apply treatment plans to suit the level and type of risk detected. This cuts out the annoyance for customers of being placed in a mass retention campaign that has little or no relevance to them or may cause further irritation.”
By automating the monitoring and treatment process, the application of AI/SmartMeasures has lessened the need for human intervention such as constantly checking dashboards or calling up clients when non-human responses would be more effective. “This allows for a smarter and more productive use of resources. However, this does not totally eliminate human intervention but which happens only when deemed absolutely necessary,” says Ms Dale.
The software falls into a rapidly emerging business practise area or discipline known as Customer Success Management. Subsequently, the product will be referred to as ‘customer success software’.
Unlike customer service, which takes a REACTIVE approach to managing customers and their problems, customer success is about businesses being PROACTIVE and dealing with customer problems and issues before they become insurmountable and the customer leaves.
“While so-called ‘customer success software’ has been about for some time, it has largely been used to measure the success of how customers use their software as a service (SaaS) purchases – if there is an opportunity to upsell or if customers are at risk of no longer purchasing. In essence, it has been an industry spawned to support businesses which sell SaaS or subscription based products.
“SmartMeasures has significantly broadened this approach to include non-SaaS software usage and apply Customer Success Management to the industry more broadly,” says Ms Dale.
Regardless of what you call it – defection, attrition, turnover, changing providers, you name it – customer churn is a painful reality doing business. Even the largest and most successful companies are not immune.
In Australia, our businesses on average lose between 6-8 percent of their customers each year, with our utilities and telecommunications sectors taking biggest beating with losses of between 20-25 percent.
To add further insult to injury, our energy retail market boasts one of the highest rates of market churn in the world, worst affected being Victoria which at last count was seeing one in four customers head for the door each year!
Much of this churn has been attributed to the liberalisation of energy retailing which has seen a succession of new entrants streaming into the market.
While competition at the best of times is good, constant switching between providers is significantly detrimental to profitability.
Australia’s health insurance sector – another group struggling under the yoke of unusually high customer churn – understands this all too well. It is seeing around 10 per cent of policy holders switching providers each year, which says health insurance industry consultant, Avnesh Ratnanesan, is putting $2 billion of revenue at risk on an annual basis.
While it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine what churn overall is costing Australian businesses, (these figures are not publicly available, in fact most businesses prefer not talking about customer attrition) best estimates put it at billions of dollars each year.
Sadly these losses, in the main, are viewed by most organisations as a part of doing business and something they have to live with!
The general consensus is that acquiring more customers and generating new business will in time balance out these unavoidable losses.
Regrettably, this thinking loses sight of the fact that it costs business 2-3 times more to acquire a new customer than retain an existing one (and in the case of the utilities sector, 6-7 times).
Businesses often forget that the cost of losing a customer is not just determined by the costs associated with recruiting replacement customers. There is also the loss of the ‘life-time value’ or the revenue the customer would ordinarily have brought in during their relationship with a business, not to mention the loss of revenue during on-boarding process.
These additional costs have the habit of just slipping under the corporate radar!
According to Sanjivrao Katakam, Principal Consultant – Energy & Utilities, Wipro, in India – who has worked extensively in the utilities sector around the world, including Australia, losing customers also has implications beyond loss of revenue.
This includes the loss of market share, a decline in brand image, not to mention the perilous threat of acquisition should a company be perceived to be haemorrhaging customers!
Tide is turning for customer retention
However, the good news is that despite the prevailing acceptance that customer attrition is part and parcel of doing business; the global tide is now turning.
More and more businesses are now no longer prepared to cop a financial belting and increasingly turning their attention to customer retention.
They are increasingly sharpening their focus on better understanding the key drivers of churn and how to step in and address an issue before it becomes a full-blown problem and a customer leaves.
Are you one of these more forward-thinking, progressive businesses? Do you believe churn is not something we should passively accept but rather something we should actively look at reducing?
Apparently not! Over the past year or so I have been chatting to business managers and friends on the topic of being smarter about servicing customers … not just giving customers online self-service, but really putting in the effort into making life easier for them to stay our customers.
In these conversations, I have been genuinely surprised by the focus on customer acquisition and the apparent lack of concern for customer retention. In fact, the more I looked into the issue, the more I realised that Australian businesses overall view customer churn as a painful reality of business and something they have little control over.
Basically, it’s been put in the ‘too-hard basket’.
For starters, there’s no one person or department stepping up and taking responsibility for customer churn. On top of that there a huge misalignment between sales and service in businesses. Sales people are rewarded for the customers they bring on board, irrespective of whether they are a perfect fit or not and with total disregard for their longer term prospects.
Sadly it is often the service team that is left to pick up the pieces when the sales team gets it wrong and customers are sold the wrong product or service!
Growing global groundswell to managing retention
Despite the somewhat gloomy picture I have painted I am happy to report that there is a growing global groundswell to more effective customer retention.
This has resulted in the emergence of a brand new practice area, ‘customer success’, and is seeing businesses increasingly focussing their attention on customer retention and systems and processes aimed at keeping their customers happy.
“In many industries, hyper-competition has eroded traditional product and service advantages, making customer experience the new competitive battlefield,” said Jake Sorofman, research director at Gartner…. The reality is that focusing innovation on new products — and even new business models — is subject to shrinking periods of competitive advantage.”
The big question is: are Australian businesses embracing this new thinking?
Are we moving away from ploughing millions into new customer acquisition and truly getting behind improving customer retention through better customer experience. More importantly, are we doing a better job holding on to them than we have up until now?